lets go --- grumbel has changed the topic to: Pingus - http://pingus.seul.org - meeting now I think grubel should give some introductory word... Welcome everybody... --> settra (settra@flandre-2-82-66-36-82.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #pingus Thanks. --> Torangan (~David_Phi@dsl-082-083-129-250.arcor-ip.net) has joined #pingus Torangan quited away a few minutes ago, hope he comes back, else it could get a bit throublesome to talk about 0.6.1 stuff ok, there you are, good :) I just had some client problems. ;-) --> mat (~mat@l03m-14-55.d2.club-internet.fr) has joined #pingus --> tobgle (~tobgle@G7208.g.pppool.de) has joined #pingus tobgle Torangan Was there any talk already - didn't get a message for the last 45 minutes or so. no tobgle Torangan nothing that matters anyway Torangan: ok, what are the missing things for 0.6.1? ie. beside the font 2nd island Important is just the font anymore. No 2nd island is for 0.7.0 k * MatzeB is back (gone 01:03:28) As soon as we get it I'll see what translations can be completed fast enough for 0.6.1 and which should wait for 0.7 what is the goal of 0.6.1 actually? bugfixing providing a testbed for 0.7 and the first official Win32 binary ever ;-) meeting already started? That would be great, many of my friends wanted to play it, but didn't want to install Linux just because of it 0.6.1 will contain mostly new translations as well as a few bugfixes and a nice font for latin1 and latin2. I could help with a windows version I think tobgle Torangan I also think that some cleanup in the level directory would be in place for .6.1. I am running through the levels atm. --> che (che@p5091F80D.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #pingus Torangan: there already was a win32 bin for 0.4 :) hello. It's been possible to compile in Win32 all the time since 0.6 - just neither grumbel nor I have the required tools and at the time of the release there were problems getting a binary. mat MatzeB MatzeB: Sphair (not yet here) will take care of win32 stuff Well, the first Win32 binary for a playable version? ok tobgle Torangan --> Harry (hstorbac@ruutana.ratol.fi) has joined #pingus has anybody tested the editor in 0.6-cvs? --> Ginge (~chatzilla@modem-1836.bonobo.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #pingus * MatzeB tries compiling pingus cvs but failed running through the levels remind me that I should install the level comment tool really soon now ie. the one in 0.6 freezed quite a few times, the in cvs should be better but might still be 'freezy' canvas.* and some other files seemed to be missing ClanLib 0.7 installed? clanlib cvs mat MatzeB is this canvas a clanlib file? seemed like a pingus file to me MatzeB: pingus 0.6 needs clanlib0.6, pingus-cvs needs clanlib0.7 And pingus-cvs doesn't produce a working binary but that's about to change hopefully. repostitory at :pserver:anonymous@cvs.clanlib.org:/var/lib/cvs is the correct one? grumbel: just to drop that in... clanlib is such a monster.. id have already packaged pingus if i had enough time to really look into clanlib ;) pingus heavily depends on clanlib from what I've seen pingus.seul.org/developement/cvs.hml - I put the info how to get the 0.6.1 sources there too anyway to stay more on topic the TODO for this month is in the happypenguin.org post? --> eats_only_heads (~chatzilla@adsl-63-206-116-232.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #pingus Do we have any guidelines for "proper" levels? I.e. is it ok to make changes in what material is solid and what is background, etc... How to define difficulties, etc, etc... ClanLib :( I would suggest porting Pingus to SDL, but it looks like a whole lot of work... mat MatzeB mat MatzeB MatzeB: the Todo isn't very detailed at the moment at happypenguin.org I try to flesh it out and provide some external links later on and like alot of unnecessary work to me well I'd like to help in coding and maybe I can help in deployement a bit (like loki installer or win32 version) perica_: its pointless, clanlib works, if it doesn't better fix clanlib than try to reimplemting clanlib ontop of sdl (which clanlib0.7 is anyway, at least in part) grumbel: do you want to acutualize the todo of pingus.seul.org too? also if it is I needed I could design some levels... Tell me something What ever happened to the "Super Tux" Function in 0.5.3? Zombie: it was never good for anything, just some graphics from xpenguins grubel: You're right. Perhaps I can get into fixing clanlib when I have some free time pingus-cvs: basher.cxx:28:28: ../resources.hxx: No such file or directory What was it supposed to be for? yep I have samer error as jpetersen MatzeB: new levels are always a good idea :-) Zombie: nothing, completly useless MatzeB: ok --> kerrigan (~kerrigan@lsanca1-ar48-4-46-107-103.lsanca1.dsl-verizon.net) has joined #Pingus Torangan: it's just that I'm best at coding am i to late? jpetersen: I commit missing files as we speak MatzeB: well, I'm good at coding and no good at design at all but there's still a lot to code left. ;-) 13 minutes late :-) --> Dree (~dree@pD9EB7B60.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #pingus last state of 0.7 should be compilable, but not useable oh crap sorry guys grumbel: doesn't compile here although I have pingus and clanlib cvs, I can tell you details later might be that recent clanlibcvs broke a few things tobgle Torangan seems more like files missing in pingus cvs that too, commited some files already ah, lemme try again tobgle Torangan Torangan: speaking about pingus0.6.1, how about changing the file extension to something like '.pingus'? would at least resolve the conflict with 0.6-.plf vs 0.4-.plf Good idea. <-- Ginge has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.62dp [Mozilla rv:1.6/20040206]") No problem on my side, just a small script. I also - to repeat myself - consider it a really good idea with some guideines for designing levels. I am also thinking that it would be a good idea to provide a better framework for user contributed levels, ie. good old contrib-section should be back And of course some adaptions to the code. ;-) <-- mat (~mat@l03m-14-55.d2.club-internet.fr) has left #pingus ("Illegal Instruction - leaving channel.") i guess i could do some graphics... any wishes? :) i can be the tester grumbel: do you mean a way to select user contributed levels from the game - yes that would be nice. Harry: We need a lot of entrances :-) Harry: tune up all animation to be on par with lemmings ;) groundpieces stuff is probally best done by myself, after all its the easy part and especially the fun one tobgle Torangan hmm... handing over the boring stuff, eh? :) Torangan: yep, exactly, a simple menu presenting a list of levels or levelsets dumped to ./pingus/levels/ or so Yep. Especially we need a "real" climber. The miner also needs more "swing" on the hack. Atm it goes up and down at approx the same speed. Needs more kinda slow up, and faaast down. i could do some coding (if another developer is needed) Every kind of help is needed I'd say. :-) Harry: any good at animations? never tried in 2d but i guess i could give it a spinn I have some ideas for additions and improvements in level setup, but is now the right time to discuss this? Harry: as Lemmus said we need a new climber and a waiting animation for the bridger are the anims just drawn right now? no generation from 3d models or some such pretty much all the other sprites could need work too, but climber and waiter are most pressing issues Harry: all drawn in 2d my anim skills are something like: http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/tmp/anim2.gif (anim.gif too) We also need some work on the bridger. I am not sure whether this is primarily animation or code that is needed. biggest problem that gimp is a pain for animations Lemmus: code mainly, the first steps of the bridger would need special handling Yep. And last step. Atm the bridger "lays" an invisible 16th block. did you try filmgimp? isn't that made for animations? more for editing movie frames ("atm" being 0.6.0, sorry) havn't tried it however any ideas how a good 2d animation tool would work? --> tuxipuxi (~tuxipuxi@pD95528A8.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #pingus Harry: like deluxpaint could code one first if that'd make the job easier :) Harry: probally with additional stuff to overlay next/previous frame transparently Harry: in 1 month? one evening :) Harry: go offline and show us your result later? ;-) Harry: I have some plans on how my drawing-app of choice would look like, but it could take a bit longer to explain --> gervase (gervase@modem-958.giraffe.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #pingus jpetersen: if you would like to do some coding I could offer some more or less boring things that need fixup inside clanlib lets try the gimp first anyways :) <-- Dree has quit (Remote closed the connection) grumbel: what's the state of the networking and splitscreen plans? that sounds like a task for me :) MatzeB: for networking I don't have any plans at all at the moment, might be good to have, but splitscreen has priority grumbel: Splitscreen without networking needs support for two mice. Do clanlib have this? Lemmus: yes, clanlib 0.7 has support for that * MatzeB also wonders how to do that. X only supports 1 mouse I think Lemmus: at least on linux, works by reading directly from /dev/input/mouseX You don't need X to query a mouse. ah nice can/should probally rewritten to support /dev/input/eventX too, not sure which one causes less throuble and if linux2.6 breaks that <-- eats_only_heads has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.52B [Mozilla rv:1.6/20040113]") What modes should splitscreen have? Cooperative play, two players race against each other on same level, ? tobgle Torangan Torangan: coop and vs tobgle Torangan We need the same 2plr mode as in lemmings. grumbel: ok MatzeB: X supports multiple mice Torangan: in both one would just have normal game player, but each player only controlling its own lemmings tobgle Torangan perica_: but not multiple pointers AFAIK MatzeB: correct grumbel: what version should i work with? Torangan: only the counting would be different really, ie. in coop you need X pingus to make it to next level, in vs you need more pingus to win a coop in which 1 people control 1 set of lemmings would also be interesting... anims still done the same in cvs and 0.6.0? a coop in which 2 people control 1 set of lemmings would also be interesting... I never found the 2player mode of lemmings much interesting, kind of always ended up being rather random grumbel: yes, I see what you mean and it shouldn't be too hard to implement tobgle Torangan Random??? Torangan: you wanna work on that too? cvs and 0.6.0 don't differ much, cvs is only partly ported to ClanLib 0.7 ok grumbel: 2 player mode was great, much more fun than single player, because you can't use the Pause MatzeB: I'm usually working on quite everything I've got the skill for. Over time that set seems to grow. ;-) Lemmus: since the actions are all 'passive' at the moment it just ended up one player blowing the other away and such, the end result was more random than determined by skill 2 player was SOOO cool. But both playsers need to be rather skilled. I don't agree. Torangan: well 2 people working on the same area might not be easy Torangan: maybe I should just do levels then... or some other coding Harry: yep, anims are still the same MatzeB: if you want to do this, don't worry, I'll find other things :-) Harry: use whatever you prefer, ie. multiple layers for anims or multiple files or whatever Harry: some script-fu/python-fu should be able to convert it one of the first goals for 0.7 will be to finish the port to clanlib 0.7 data/images/fonts/pingus_small-2.png seems to be missing in cvs perica_: if you don't want to be tempted to use pause, just define no key for it *g* I do use it in single player, since the number of saved pingus counts could somebody give me an idea of what the fun part of lemmings 2 player mode is, ie. what stops it from ending up pretty boring (place a stoper, player2 destroys the stopper, place another stopper, p2 destroys it again, vice. verse, etc.)? grumbel: Well that would be 2 players in coop mode playing vs ;-) maybe just the fact that you had a reason to meet your friend :) grumbel: "destrying" the opponents stopper is not so easy - because you can only give orders to your own pingus. In order to get your own stoppers to stop the opponents pingus you need to make him turn around and visit the opponents half of the screen. Lemmus: place a stopper beside the other players stopper, blow your stopper away Yes, ofcourse. it all sounds more than chaos than fun grumbel: you have green and blue pingus, each belonging to one player. You can only control yours. But you don't have unlimited amount of stoppers. It is a chaotic fun :) Yep. grumbel: I guess we should implement it if some people have fun playing that way. Must not be me or you. :-) perica_: yes, I know how it works, I just have a hard time imagine it to be fun for more than a few minutes Well. I have played it for hours and hours. I compared to worms there are just far less possiblites well, you have _your_ exit and you have to move yours and opponents pingus there, and he has to stop you and try the opposite at the same time Worms is boring. with a lot of additional actions, especially designed for multiplayer it might get interesting, but still due to the lack of direct controlls it would feel a bit weird Well, nothing is going to stop us from adding worms like actions. Why use a basher? Use your bazooka Pingu. ;-) Worms is boring only because it's turn based... pingus is a action game :) Lemmus: watching some pro-gamers doing some rope-action is already interesting enough :) worms is nice we turn the rope off when playing, and turn time is set to 20sec On the other hand - do we want to see those cute little Pingus use weapons? no! tobgle Torangan otherwise you can die of boredom while you wait your turn Torangan: for multiplayer they kind of have to tobgle Torangan Torangan: one could always do it 'paintball-style' grumbel: good idea grumbel: no. no need to spread blood across the screen but i don't want to see dying tuxis :) Killing your opponent is a bad idea. Stealing them is better. I'd say no blood for sure, won't fit the game IMHO. i agree Weapons that change the color of your opponents Pingu and make them yours? Yes, I like that idea more. Lemmus: stealing is the best :) Lemmus: the problem is that stealing is boring, no sneaking etc., stealing them is rather obvious Yep. This way they count "double". tobgle Torangan Torangan: yep, something like that, the posibilty to place traps and such would be nice too one would also need runners and/or teleporters to speed up gameplay a bit Obvious, but dangerous, because if you steal them then you have to force them to go to your half of the screen - and hence give the other player lots of possibilities of doing harm. No one said that stolen Pingu must be easy to save. ;-) Exactly. grumbel: have you ever played lemmings in two. Nothing needs to speed it up, it goes too fast, since you have another *human* intervening perica_: yes, I have and it was never much fun well, I guess different people have different tastes well with such special multiplayer options it could be fun also I think for some people a cooperative mode would be good... Yep. And really, this discussion is rather silly. Because as soon as we have support for two mice and two colours of pingus, then implementing all sorts of multiplayer games will be really easy. well this discussion has to happen sometime, but I agree not now :) Lemmus: implementing to colour pingus was already done in the past, but got stripped out again due to it being rather useless cooperative-vs mode could be interesting, ie. player needing to help each other, while still fighting for the most pingus in the goal that sounds strange to me... depend on your enemy, yes that's an interesting challenge grumbel: I am not sure that I understand. Isn't this the same as "real" vs mode. Just with a different type of level? we could have some kind of fog like in strategy games Lemmus: would also need special traps and such, else you could always to stuff yourself so that you can't see the turns of your opponents directly in this case traps and all this stuff would make sense again Matze: That I do not understand. Lemmus: it's simple you only see what your pingus see Lemmus: the rest is grayed out MatzeB: would be a bit weird in splitscreen, but for network it would surly be a great thing ie. you see the map but not the opponent... yes on splitscreen it's not usefull Oh. But if the opponent is working on your half of the screen then you would see him nevertheless. Lemmus: yep Lemmus: but maybe then it's too late ;-) One player could have only one type of actions, and other other type, so they have to help each other ??? What do you mean - I really don't understand. What is the parameter to specify the output of a tarball again? perica_: could get impossible to balance that way As long as the opponent is on his own half then he cannot do anything that is dangerous to you. As soon as he enters your half then you see him. IMO, lemmus is right well I assume these multiplayer options are not a goal for this month? And is it possible to have more than one species in Pingus? I think we should first concentrate on cooperative and race mode, shouldn't we? MatzeB: yep, since thats what we get pretty much for 'free' Zombie: what do you want to achieve? well I have an exam on 6.th but after that I should have some time to work on the splitscreen and then network mode I just want to recustively tar directory into directory.tar.gz grumbel: so I'll come back to that later Zombie: tar czvf foo.tar.gz foo/ okay I had it backwards anybody tried gimp gap (GIMP Animation Package)? seems to be a new thing in 2.0 (or >=1.3.5) Harry: its a huge ugly hack and slow too heh, ok :) Here comes an idea: How about adding an optional colour-field to each worldobject. Problem is that different worlds have different shade. --> JDaly (~JDaly@pD9541686.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #pingus Lemmus: worldobjs don't really need different colors for that I.e. jungle have to be sort-of green, and hellmouth have to be sort of brown. either they are specifcly designed for a world (which is the case for entrances/exits) or they arn't pingus cvs crashs in editor and in the worldmap there's no pingu running around in the later case a different color wouldn't help and I can't seem to start levels This way you would be able to do much more recycling on world-object than what you are today. MatzeB: thats expected, still a lot of stuff #ifdef'ed out to get it through the compiler ah ok Lemmus: drawing new worldobjects is relativly 'cheap', so no need for recycling I.e. take a look at the jungle level that I did submit a week ago. The stone wall looks awfully gray. grumbel: and there seems to be some problems with the sprite definintions in data/data/*.xml Yep. Drawing is cheap, but harddisk space is expensive. Lemmus: hard disk space is even more cheap close to be 'for free' I don't agree. download size is not cheap adding complexity in code to save harddisk space really isn't worth it IMO Lemmus: you get a gigabyte for something like 1EUR grumbel: be carefull, some people don't have access to resources like hard disk space or download as we. grumbel: Not in a laptop. Lemmus: make it 2EUR there We should remember that the groundpiece grafics are in KB area. And downloading a gigabyte is - with my internet connection - 15 euros. 1GB is still far from what Pingus will need 1gb is still 50 times larger than pingus is currently Avoiding unnecessary downloads is a good idea - for 0.6.1 the .ogg music which is not used in tutorial world will be in an extra package intend for level designers. Going into great pain to save it isn't worth the time though. grumbel: what need to be fixed in libclan? I cannot really see that it is "great pain". The possibility is already there for backgrounds. It would just be copying a bit of code. jpetersen: seemlessly switching from fullscree to windowed mode and back grumbel: ok, i'll look at it jpetersen: in general the whole fullscreen stuff looks a lot less robust than sdl, so simply copy&pasting from sdl might already help is that climber limited to 90deg. walls? why not using SDL? Harry: pretty much at the moment MatzeB: clanlib0.7 uses sdl for software rendering Harry: We need gfx for changes between walking and climing. for opengl however its plain glx at the moment maybe you should change that then as for windows you can't use glx too MatzeB: for windows it has its own wgl stuff Harry: This way you would also be able to do some sensible climbs on less than 90 degree walls. Harry: Have you seen the orig. Lemmings gfx? Harry: climbing should be more traditional climbing, ie. not just walking rotated 90 degree Lemmus: you'd also need some code to make a non 90 degree climb possible. i'm sure i have, but it's been a while :) climbing should be a bit tollerant, but it shouldn't allow non-90 degree climbs if it was a real climbing like thing it could be rotated for some angles I guess for climbing we could use something like a 90 degree turned walker mode - where a walker would change to a faller, the climber changes to a walker. say 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 and those stored as sprites Harry: Ok. In lemmings you only had 90 degree climbs. If slope was greater than 90degrees then lemming would fall down. If it was smaller then lemming would "pull itself up" on the single pixel, and then it would continue to climb from there. --> wansti (~wansti@p5086F2DD.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #pingus different topic, I plan to convert the pingus cvs repository to svn in the very near future should make renames and such far easier than with cvs As in Svannah? HArry: Problem in that would be the coding part. The background is just stored as a pix-map, so making the code "see" the slope of a wall would not be trivial. As in subversion grumbel: will it be more stable now than what you had with windstille? Zombie: svn as in http://subversion.tigris.org/ grumbel: I remember the windstille repo was broken 2 times... in a month MatzeB: will be 1.0 svn if it stable then it'll be nice By the way. Can we please do soething about muzak in Wargus? lemmus: making a Pingu see the next few pixels isn't that difficult. It's not as if you'd have to see a large way up front and the climber won't even start if it can't finish. WRong query Torangan: Well if you think that <90o climbs is worth it then ok. But personally I think that the "lemmings solution" would be ok. --- #pingus :No such nick/channel I don't need other degrees than 90, it's more a question for level designers. Is there substantial gain in such a feature? tobgle Torangan tobgle Torangan Torangan: a 'walking on the roof' like action could be usefull generic climbing however not so much Well. Ofcourse a pingu should be able to "climb" any <90o surface. I just think that the "lemmings way of doing it" looks good enough. --> zz|sergant (user@ip67-25.dialup.wplus.net) has joined #pingus grumbel: if you'd explain what you mean tobgle Torangan grumbel: Yeah, like the moon booter in lemmingsII the tribes. Torangan: inverse gravitiy and have the pingu walk on the other side grumbel: Ah yes, that's an ability with more potential. Allows for completely different tactics. grumbel: can you give an outline of what's to do to get cvs version to produce a working binary? tobgle Torangan tobgle Torangan I guess that's the first step before we should implement new features. :-) the cvs version doesn't work currently Can't find a win32 version of pingus. Is there any working win32 version ? :) Torangan: checkout Libs/ClanLib-0.7, checkout Games/Pingus/, configure && make zz|sergant: no, but you can compile one yourself grumbel: sure, I have all that on disk on the code side one needs to fill out all the #ifdef CLANLIB_0_6 stuff and convert it to clanlib0.7 grumbel: ok grumbel: with working binary, I meant a playable without those #ifdef basically replacing a few names here and there and moving some of the hardcoded Sprite-classes stuff into CL_Sprites and resource files tobgle Torangan well I can't work on pingus until 7. or 8. Apr anyway, hope that'll be fixed until then :) speaking about single player, what do people expect? I thought about having two new island, each ~20 levels yep 2-4 new islands :) depending on how much we get done both stone and hellmouth/volcano could/should be used first levels of 2 world with some ice, later on mostly stone? I can't see volcano on the worlds page tobgle Torangan Torangan: first world should be a mix of stones and ice/snow That's the same as hellmouth tobgle Torangan tobgle Torangan ah volcano and stone look very much similar on the other side that's probably less work for artists I guess the third world (counting tutorial as first) should then be the volcano - gradually getting hotter. lava is hot under north pole too I like the Sortie and Desert themes most from a first look... The surrounding area of lava isn't exactly frozen most of the time. some diversity in theme would make things more interesting IMO MatzeB: sortie currently sucks from a level designers point of view <-- wansti has quit (Remote closed the connection) there are many playable levels, why not just use them? When 1.0 is out, then all worlds will have to be sorted in logical order, IMHO and desert would be a hard jump from the ice of tutorial. ie. its almost impossible to build levels with sortie at the moment due to the lack of gfx Torangan: that's why I like it :) desert however is good and already has a handfull of nice levels Torangan: after playing 20 ice levels I wanna see new stuff kind of rewarding when you mastered a world, then you see new nice graphics MatzeB: don't forget that we've got a story line and mastering tutorial island isn't exactly difficult. perica_: a lot of those levels have quite variing quality perica_: beside that they don't fit the theme, etc. If we find levels in playable that can be used for a world, nothing prevents us from doing so. well, then add a level-browser so anyone can pick a random level from directory... and have a mark (whether the player made it or not) grumbel: Desert imho have 5 nice levels. desert2.plf desert3-tflavel.plf desert5-tflavel.plf desert7-grumbel.plf desert-crawl-timpany.plf - some of them needs a bit of work, but not much. a automatically generated worldmap for the contrib levels would be a cool idea after few days I forgot which levels I tried... Generating a worldmap for the contrib levels would require for all of them to be rated with regards to diffculty I'd say. Lemmus: there is also the indiana-yingwan.plf and probally a few more other from yingwan, I think desert1-5.plf are good too Torangan: just a plain field or so tobgle Torangan Torangan: so that you can play them all, it just would match the style nicely IMO Torangan: just a list for random contrib-levels will do Grunbel. Hmm. They need some work. well I gotta go bye grumbel: do you intend such a list for 0.6.1? tobgle Torangan will someone post a log somewhere later? Torangan: yep grumbel: I think that's a good idea. Perhaps we can get back to the idea of using a worlds like mode for 0.7. Having a way to select them from the game is an improvement in any case. <-- MatzeB has quit () <-- jpetersen has quit ("Client exiting") <-- perica_ has quit () grumbel: Do you have a date in mind to get 0.6.1 out? should be doable to get it out in one or two weeks Yes, I considered mid april to be a good date - enough time for the translators still working to finish their work. Lemmus: don't see much wrong with desert1-7-{grumbel}.plf actually